[00:00:11] Hello everyone and we are back, episode number three. Jason, how are you doing? How are you feeling?

[00:00:18] I'm doing pretty good. How are you feeling?

[00:00:21] I'm feeling good because like I was saying, on December 2nd we actually made with our first, the only episode on the charts on Apple Podcast Health and Fitness category in Top 250,

[00:00:37] which is basically top one percentile shows in health and fitness category in the US. So we have something going on here. Congratulations.

[00:00:48] It still feels somewhat strange, slightly embarrassing since that first episode is really nothing but some goofy guy talking about himself.

[00:00:58] Hey, you know, it's a start and people are resonating with the story and they probably want to hear more.

[00:01:05] So today is what we are going deeper into more of Jason has coined this term, I would say, Kratogenesis and that the difference between that and Salutogenesis.

[00:01:21] That's a big talking talking point for today's episode. So let's jump in. Jason, you know, you talked briefly in previous episode about Kratogenesis,

[00:01:32] but for those who are listening now and haven't heard the previous episode, what is the difference between Kratogenesis and Salutogenesis?

[00:01:44] Okay, so what comes to mind is, or where I came up with this, is when I was young and what my mom used to say to me whenever I drank too much soda,

[00:01:58] she'd say that, you know, caffeine is a drug. And the way that she said drug, it's always so impactful.

[00:02:04] And even though that's kind of funny, I think where she more said it was, when I was a kid, lots more people smoked and I never really understood the allure.

[00:02:16] And I remember a conversation with my mom once where she was trying to explain to me what addiction was.

[00:02:25] And she explained that nicotine was a drug and it altered brain chemistry and created dependency.

[00:02:37] And so like many people, she was using the word drug to describe something that forces the body to do something that it wouldn't naturally do.

[00:02:47] And I guess that sort of stuck with me. And as I started considering Salutogenesis as an ideal path to health,

[00:02:58] I kind of needed a term that captures Salutogenesis's, that's hard to say,

[00:03:06] Salutogenesis's antithetic concept to forcing the body.

[00:03:11] And I guess that's why I coined the term pratogenic drug from the Greek words,

[00:03:16] kratos meaning force and genesis meaning creation.

[00:03:19] So pratogenic drugs force the body to act in ways that it wouldn't otherwise.

[00:03:26] And, you know, I'm not trying to make necessarily a judgment there.

[00:03:30] Sometimes that's necessary, like when we need to override harmful processes that the body is currently undertaking.

[00:03:38] But that often comes with significant consequences.

[00:03:43] On the other hand, Salutogenesis, something that we've defined as health creation,

[00:03:47] represents a completely different approach.

[00:03:51] And I guess in the context of drugs, I define Salutogenesis as working with or supporting the body's natural processes.

[00:04:03] So salutogenic drugs aren't forcing the body.

[00:04:07] Instead, they provide the resources or conditions necessary for it to function optimal.

[00:04:14] And now having both terms, cratogenesis and salutogenesis or cratogenic and salutogenic,

[00:04:21] we can start having a more nuanced conversation and meaningful conversation about these,

[00:04:27] how different therapies interact with the body differently.

[00:04:30] And then that also kind of allows us to shift the perspective and help us kind of rethink how we approach medicine and wellness.

[00:04:39] And this is for our listeners.

[00:04:41] The previous episode, we actually went into more deeper discussion on salutogenesis.

[00:04:46] So have a listen to that if you would like to.

[00:04:51] But, you know, pharmaceutical drugs, surgeries, and even certain lifestyles interventions often force specific changes in the body.

[00:05:00] And this is also, I'm again hitting your definition kind of cratogenic or cratogenesis.

[00:05:08] Can you provide examples of cratogenesis in traditional healthcare or daily life?

[00:05:14] Sure.

[00:05:14] Let's start with the daily life.

[00:05:18] So weight loss, for instance.

[00:05:21] Crash diets force rapid weight loss by depriving the body of essential nutrients.

[00:05:26] That can be considered cratogenic in that you're trying to force something to occur.

[00:05:33] Appetite suppressants override natural health signals.

[00:05:38] And again, both of those can work well in the short term, but in the long term, they can have consequences.

[00:05:46] Then there are stimulants and sedatives.

[00:05:50] Caffeine, as my mom would point out, forces heightened alertness while sleeping pills.

[00:05:56] Artificially induced sleep.

[00:06:00] And all of that can disrupt the body's natural rhythms.

[00:06:03] Even in skin care and cosmetic procedures, you can see cratogenic approaches like a chemical skin peel forces you to shed layers of skin.

[00:06:16] And like Botox paralyzes muscles to reduce wrinkles.

[00:06:22] If we move into the more medical interventions, these seem a little bit more obvious.

[00:06:28] Surgeries absolutely are cratogenic, but also pretty important.

[00:06:34] And like, you know, even a coronary bypass.

[00:06:38] Right.

[00:06:39] So that that would force blood around blocked arteries.

[00:06:42] But it doesn't really address the root cause of like inflammation or dietary habits.

[00:06:50] Even vaccines with adjuvants work by forcing a heightened immune response, which can be effective, but also pretty harsh on the body.

[00:07:00] And then, of course, the pharmaceutical drugs.

[00:07:03] You have antibiotics are great at killing harmful bacteria, but they often disrupt the natural microbiome.

[00:07:11] So they're actually an example of a drug that I guess strives to be salutogenic and correcting or shifting the terrain to something that is more beneficial for our cells,

[00:07:27] but doesn't quite get there because of the damage that it does.

[00:07:31] Whereas chemotherapy is, I would call that very cratogenic because it destroys cancer cells, yes, but it also damages healthy cells.

[00:07:43] So all those are examples of forcing the body to act in a specific way that it wouldn't do naturally.

[00:07:53] And again, I'm not necessarily trying to make any judgments.

[00:08:00] Cratogenic approaches are often necessary and life-saving, but they can often come with fairly significant trade-offs.

[00:08:08] I do want to ask a couple of follow-up questions to this.

[00:08:12] So one is like dieting, like dieting as in like fasting in general when people, that is not considered cratogenic, right?

[00:08:25] Even though you're starving through force per se.

[00:08:28] So I'm just trying to understand where it's like the clear bifurcation here.

[00:08:33] Sure. I mean, to some extent, this is a spectrum between cratogenic and salutogenesis.

[00:08:40] And to some extent, you have to decide has something gone so far as to no longer be salutogenic?

[00:08:47] Intermittent fasting, I would say, yeah, that's probably a very salutogenic practice.

[00:08:54] It's only once you start starving yourself that it starts to cause harm.

[00:09:00] Now, I guess that might not strictly follow a cratogenic definition because there doesn't have to be harm there.

[00:09:14] You're simply forcing the body to do something that it wouldn't do otherwise.

[00:09:20] So in that case, maybe we'll take dieting off of the cratogenic list because by not eating, the body will naturally do these things.

[00:09:28] Understood. And the second facet to that, just for clarification sake here, is like, you know, there are diets like keto diets where you eat a lot of fat and then you are, you know, less carbs basically.

[00:09:42] And then you're trying to do it is it helps you then burn fat faster.

[00:09:48] But it also has other maybe side effects slightly that comes with it, which is like, you know, can impact your other things, which your blood pressure can go up in that way.

[00:09:59] So cholesterol can go up. So would that be also just you would consider a type of diet and that how you would say it's still salutogenic unless it's not causing more harm versus versus the more gains towards it?

[00:10:14] Well, so in truth, I coined the term cratogenic really to discuss drugs because I wanted to start presenting and talking about salutogenic drugs as independent from normal drugs and trying to just talk about.

[00:10:33] Salutogenic drugs versus normal drugs gets a little bit weird.

[00:10:37] I needed something to define the normal drug.

[00:10:41] So I'm not really trying to use cratogenic as a way to identify lifestyle interventions as good or bad for sure.

[00:10:54] And not really even trying to use it.

[00:10:58] You define lifestyle interventions as forcing a body to react in a certain way.

[00:11:03] I guess you could, but that wasn't my original intent for the term.

[00:11:08] OK, so this is this is good clarification.

[00:11:11] So so that's good how you are coining it.

[00:11:14] And so, you know, everyone who's listening also understand the same way.

[00:11:17] That's how we are coining this term.

[00:11:20] OK, now specifically talking about the drugs.

[00:11:23] So could you share examples of drugs or therapies that align more with salutogenesis?

[00:11:32] Sure, there are actually a lot now, traditionally or I guess conventionally, there aren't nearly as many.

[00:11:41] But and many of them would be considered therapies, I suppose.

[00:11:45] But, for example, probiotic based therapies and restore the balance in the microbiome.

[00:11:51] Hyperbaric oxygen increases the body's oxygen availability and that increases our ability to heal and supports cellular repair.

[00:12:06] Elation therapy that helps remove heavy metals and toxins.

[00:12:13] Nutritional therapies or biological therapies like enzyme replacement and even hormone replacement therapies can fit into the salutogenic framework since they are providing the body what it needs to thrive.

[00:12:29] But I guess that actually brings up an important point.

[00:12:32] We have to recognize that most drugs and therapies aren't going to be purely cratogenic or purely salutogenic.

[00:12:40] They exist kind of on a spectrum.

[00:12:43] So specifically the enzyme or hormone replacement therapies, they're aiming to restore balance.

[00:12:49] If that's if that's their aim, then they are salutogenic in nature, but they can shift to be more cratogenic if they overpower the body's natural regulatory mechanisms.

[00:13:01] And then that kind of becomes a gray area as to whether you want to call them salutogenic or cratogenic.

[00:13:07] But I guess what I really want to talk about here is what I think is one of the most interesting examples of a salutogenic drug and one that might be almost entirely salutogenic.

[00:13:19] And that is ion ZCM or ion gel ZCM25.

[00:13:23] It's a topical antimicrobial gel that doesn't just kill harmful microbes.

[00:13:30] It also provides essential nutrients to the cells that it interacts with, like zinc and copper.

[00:13:38] And this helps reduce oxidative or excessive oxidative stress.

[00:13:45] And that dual action makes it highly effective even against antimicrobial resistant microbes while still supporting the body's natural healing processes.

[00:13:57] So ion gel ZCM25 is a great example of how we can blend, you know, kind of cutting edge science with principles of salutogenesis.

[00:14:07] And it addresses more than just the pathogenic aspect.

[00:14:11] So we can also split this into this particular.

[00:14:16] It's actually classified as a medical device as opposed to a drug.

[00:14:22] But it's easier to call it a drug because it kind of seems like one.

[00:14:25] But so the ion gel has pathogenic aspects to it in that I'm not really saying that right.

[00:14:34] It is treating from a pathogenic point of view where it's actually eliminating the microbes.

[00:14:44] But then it is also supplying nutrients that are needed by the cells.

[00:14:50] So it actually combines both salutogenic and pathogenic aspects.

[00:14:54] But I would consider it a completely salutogenic, not cratogenic at all in terms of what it actually is and how it is working.

[00:15:05] Could you talk about a little bit more where is this or like how people can find it?

[00:15:14] What exactly, you know, utilities wise, where exactly are the use cases people are using it by treatment or certain things?

[00:15:23] Ion gel ZCM25.

[00:15:26] Well, it's only approved in Mexico so far.

[00:15:32] So it would be hard to access it unless you are in Mexico.

[00:15:38] And it's it's approved as an antimicrobial antimicrobial and antioxidant for wound healing and infection control.

[00:15:50] So and more.

[00:15:54] I guess a little bit more about it is it is considered almost cutting edge innovation, especially for, you know, this antibiotic resistance and handling that.

[00:16:08] So what would this something like this?

[00:16:11] It's coming to us.

[00:16:12] Is it in progress?

[00:16:14] Any any insights on that where it stands?

[00:16:18] The cost to bring a drug to the U.S. is expensive.

[00:16:25] It's it's stupid money.

[00:16:29] So it's probably not going to come to the U.S. for a while.

[00:16:34] That would be my guess.

[00:16:36] Now we are or I guess I should say they are since I'm not involved in the company.

[00:16:43] But the Ionic Alliance Foundation does help out a lot.

[00:16:47] And I'm helping them to try and get approval to place the CE mark on this device.

[00:16:57] And by doing that, that opens up much, much more of the world.

[00:17:04] Of course, then they have to find distributors and so on and so forth in each of the different markets that they want to go into.

[00:17:11] But that would be pretty exciting.

[00:17:13] Because that's actually the first medical product that is based on ion biotechnology.

[00:17:20] Yep, it will be.

[00:17:21] I guess you got to keep us updated on this as we progress through our episodes.

[00:17:28] All right.

[00:17:29] So let's talk about antimicrobial resistance a bit here.

[00:17:34] So it is often described as a looming global crisis.

[00:17:39] And, you know, with some experts warning it, it could lead to really, really devastating consequences for modern medicine.

[00:17:47] And can you explain the scope of this issue and what it might mean for the world if we fail to address it again, coming from thinking, explaining to a layman like me?

[00:17:58] Sure.

[00:17:59] So antibiotic resistance or antimicrobial resistance, they give that acronym AMR, it is absolutely a looming global crisis.

[00:18:10] And this isn't just a hypothetical scenario.

[00:18:13] We're already seeing the effects.

[00:18:16] The idea of this post-antibiotic era where common infections and minor injuries can become life-threatening really isn't science fiction, even though it sounds like some scary movie.

[00:18:29] It's a very real possibility.

[00:18:31] And actually, given the current trajectory that we're on, it's perhaps probable.

[00:18:37] And this isn't just me saying this.

[00:18:40] Lots of experts have raised the alarm.

[00:18:43] And I actually have to look at some notes for the names here.

[00:18:47] But, for example, we've got Dr. Margaret Chan.

[00:18:51] She's the former director general of the WHO.

[00:18:54] She described AMR as one of the gravest threats to global public health.

[00:18:59] She warned that without the effect of antibiotics, we could be heading into that post-antibiotic era.

[00:19:07] And she described that as turning back the clock on medicine by 100 years.

[00:19:13] Dr. Davies is the UK's former chief medical officer.

[00:19:18] Calls it a ticking time bomb and questioning why AMR is not prioritized as highly as, like, climate change.

[00:19:26] So, really, the humanitarian cost of AMR is kind of staggering.

[00:19:32] If left unchecked, it could cause up to 10 million deaths annually by 2050.

[00:19:37] That's according to economist Jim O'Neill.

[00:19:42] And that's more than the current death toll of all of cancer.

[00:19:49] And beyond loss of life, it also would have catastrophic consequences on just the global health care systems.

[00:19:57] Procedures we take for granted, like simple surgeries, could become too risky because of untreatable infections.

[00:20:03] And that O'Neill also pointed to the economic cost of $100 trillion globally by 2050.

[00:20:17] That includes the health care expenses, lost productivity, and all of the ripple effects of different outbreaks.

[00:20:28] And, yeah, it's a big deal.

[00:20:32] And we're already seeing signs of the crisis with conditions like diabetic wounds.

[00:20:38] And so, when a diabetic wound can't be healed or when you can't get rid of the infection, then there's really nothing left but amputation there.

[00:21:02] And I know we talked about that a little bit last time.

[00:21:10] So, I've actually been thinking about this, and I almost want to consider diabetic wounds as the canary in the coal mine.

[00:21:19] Because the more we start seeing untreatable diabetic wounds, that's really foreshadowing what the future is going to look like as more and more microbes become resistant to antibiotics and develop these resistances.

[00:21:38] Or resistances.

[00:21:42] And so, that's basically, the diabetics are kind of one step closer than most people are because they've already got some issues with being able to repair and heal.

[00:21:59] And does that make sense why I'm calling that the canary in the coal mine?

[00:22:02] Yeah, you're almost pointing this as the leading indicator of where it's heading.

[00:22:11] Yeah.

[00:22:14] Yeah, makes sense.

[00:22:16] And, but it's like a little baffling to me.

[00:22:20] If I don't hear about this as much in media or in news about, you know, even though you made very clear, you pointed out to this very clear sources, the people in medical industry or medical world, healthcare world in general, making this with all the impact that it has.

[00:22:42] Why is that the case?

[00:22:44] I mean, I hear this generic statement all the time.

[00:22:48] We have more toxins in our environment and ecosystem.

[00:22:52] It's getting worse.

[00:22:53] But there's not much education or even reiteration on this messaging a lot.

[00:23:01] Is this like, am I, is it just me who's living in the bubble who don't hear it?

[00:23:06] Or is it just how it is?

[00:23:07] I know it's, it's not talked about a ton.

[00:23:12] And, you know, that that's why, you know, one of those experts was saying, well, how come we're focusing so much on climate change, but not on this, when we can see this happening?

[00:23:22] Okay.

[00:23:24] And, and, you know, it, it can turn back medicine by a hundred years, meaning we won't be able to have all these surgeries because, you know, you get a simple infection and we can't cure it.

[00:23:35] And then, you know, people are going to start dying from simple things.

[00:23:41] Part of the reason is, at least as of now, the antimicrobial market, there's not really that much money.

[00:23:53] And unfortunately, everything seems to follow money.

[00:23:57] Now, further than that, there's not, well, I was going to say there's not much we can do.

[00:24:06] I don't think that's entirely true.

[00:24:09] You know, pharmaceutical companies are always trying to develop the next antibiotic.

[00:24:17] But, and that's the concern is we're taking these antibiotics and changing them slightly.

[00:24:28] So it's kind of, it's almost like an arms race between antibiotics and microbes.

[00:24:33] The microbes are always developing resistance and they always will.

[00:24:38] And then we always have to develop a new, slightly different antibiotic that, that targets a slightly different pathway until the microbes become resistant to that pathway and so on and so forth.

[00:24:53] So, yeah, why, why are we not hearing about this?

[00:24:56] Honestly, if you start looking for it, I think you'll see it a lot more.

[00:25:02] And, you know, I've got some colleagues that are, they look at like fungi specifically will be the end of humanity because at some point we just won't be able to treat them.

[00:25:17] And they will be just, they'll be able to kind of eat through our body and our body won't be able to do that.

[00:25:23] I don't know that I would go quite that far.

[00:25:26] And I think that we do have some options available to us.

[00:25:30] Okay.

[00:25:32] Yeah, this is, like I said, I will start looking into this more personally after this conversation.

[00:25:38] So let's see if I find more of this.

[00:25:42] But, but let's talk a little bit about, again, you mentioned the ion gel was effective against ARMs and these, you know,

[00:25:53] and which seems like almost like if we have a problem and then you provide a solution like this,

[00:26:00] it looks like almost not real to me at this point or to most people.

[00:26:05] So it seems counterintuitive that something highly effective at killing harmful organisms could be safe enough also.

[00:26:14] Because, you know, we've seen almost like the first thing I think about it, things like chemotherapy and all that stuff.

[00:26:19] Yeah, it solves the problem, but it also does other stuff.

[00:26:22] So correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't this like salutogenic drug be something that almost can't be overused?

[00:26:32] Because then you can end up in a similar situation as it happens with other things where you get, you know,

[00:26:38] you kill undesired things that you shouldn't be.

[00:26:40] Can you explain also the mechanism of how this is safe, even if, even you have overuse in certain situation, how that works?

[00:26:51] Sure.

[00:26:53] So you're right.

[00:26:54] Most things that are good at killing things are also pretty good at killing us.

[00:27:00] And that's, you know, they're forcing actions almost all the time.

[00:27:04] This is a cryogenic drug, right?

[00:27:06] It's forcing actions that disrupt natural cellular processes.

[00:27:10] And as our cells have some of the similar processes, we can be collateral damage there.

[00:27:18] So the ion gel Zsim25 stands out because it works different in how it kills microbes.

[00:27:25] So it's actually a synergistic combination of copper, zinc and sulfate.

[00:27:29] That's what powers its antimicrobial action.

[00:27:33] So these elements work together to disrupt microbial function at multiple levels.

[00:27:41] I'll try and stay sort of high level here.

[00:27:44] There's a lot of overlap between what the different ions are doing, but I'll kind of stay at the main thing that each one does.

[00:27:52] So copper, for example, is highly effective at damaging microbial membranes and proteins.

[00:27:58] And ancient sailors figured this out a long time ago, right?

[00:28:03] Though they didn't know the mechanism.

[00:28:04] They tossed copper coins into, you know, the potable water barrels to keep the water fresh.

[00:28:12] And while some microbes can actually repair from the damage caused by copper,

[00:28:21] copper resistance is actually normally much less robust than antibiotic resistance is

[00:28:26] because copper actually attacks multiple pathways just by itself.

[00:28:29] Whereas most antibiotics are focused on a specific pathway.

[00:28:34] So, but here's the kicker.

[00:28:36] So even with microbes that can repair damage to the membranes and basically heal themselves from that,

[00:28:47] they face another problem.

[00:28:48] During that repair process, the cell walls become porous.

[00:28:52] That allows higher than normal amounts of zinc and sulfates to enter those microbes.

[00:28:59] And then the high concentrations of zinc ions disrupt enzymatic function,

[00:29:03] while the high concentration of sulfates interfere with the microbes and metabolic processes.

[00:29:10] And then together, all of that essentially completely overwhelms the microbes' ability to repair

[00:29:16] all of that initial damage caused by the copper.

[00:29:25] And so you have to understand this doesn't just slow microbial growth.

[00:29:33] It kind of completely obliterates the cell structure and its ability to function.

[00:29:39] It's kind of like expecting someone to be able to do a thousand consecutive pull-ups.

[00:29:45] You know, I'm going to start working out and be good at doing pull-ups,

[00:29:48] so I'm going to start doing a thousand all at once.

[00:29:52] The damage there completely overwhelms your ability to adapt.

[00:29:56] If we go back to our eudaimonic scale that we talked about last time,

[00:30:00] the stressor side of the balance just so outweighs the resilience side that the net result is always going to be well into the negative for the microbes.

[00:30:12] And then they always end up moving towards dysfunction, not towards resilience.

[00:30:18] And so really, this doesn't leave the microbes any, I mean, that multifaceted attack doesn't leave the microbes any viable pathway to evolve resistance.

[00:30:32] Now, I guess eliminating harmful organisms without damaging our cells might be enough to consider it,

[00:30:41] that the ion gel is solutogenic, but it does go a step further.

[00:30:47] It also is approved as an antioxidant, which really solidifies its solutogenic status as far as I'm concerned.

[00:30:57] So the ion gel supplies essential ions, the same ions, zinc, copper, magnesium, and sulfates, to cells.

[00:31:08] When cells are stressed, they generally become deficient in the zinc probably more than anything else.

[00:31:15] Maybe it's in the sulfates as well.

[00:31:20] And so, for example, during prolonged inflammation or excessive oxidative stress,

[00:31:30] cells ramp up.

[00:31:33] It's the production of superoxide dismutase, SOD, SOD.

[00:31:38] That's one of the body's most important antioxidant enzymes.

[00:31:43] And it turns out that zinc and copper are the cofactors for SOD, meaning that the enzymes can't function.

[00:31:50] They can't do anything unless they bind with zinc and copper.

[00:31:54] And prolonged stress, and actually I should say prolonged local stress,

[00:32:04] can deplete these essential ions locally from cells.

[00:32:14] And so, generally what that means is that the cells, when they're under excessive oxidative stress,

[00:32:21] they will spit out this enzyme and they'll produce as much as they can to lower their oxidative stress.

[00:32:26] But it can't really do anything because, and it's mostly the zinc that ends up being the limiting factor there,

[00:32:32] there's not enough zinc to bind with it along with copper to make them functional.

[00:32:36] So, only the ones that get to bind with zinc and copper become functional.

[00:32:41] And so, the ion gel is completely eliminating that limiting factor.

[00:32:46] So, now the cells can actually reduce their oxidative stress pretty much as fast as they want to.

[00:32:55] And what's interesting about this, or I think this is kind of fascinating.

[00:33:01] So, the ion gel's antioxidant properties are actually conditional.

[00:33:07] So, when cells aren't experiencing excessive oxidative stress, they won't be spitting out this enzyme,

[00:33:13] or at least they won't be making nearly as much of it.

[00:33:16] And then, when you've got excess zinc and copper around, it's not going to be used to reduce oxidative stress.

[00:33:23] And, actually, conversely, macrophages and other immune cells can be picking up the copper ions,

[00:33:30] and they can actually use the copper ions to induce oxidative stress.

[00:33:35] They'll actually produce reactive oxygen species in an attempt to kill pathogens.

[00:33:40] And this is kind of what I think makes the ion gel so unique.

[00:33:49] It can actually have two completely opposite effects, depending on what the cells are trying to do themselves.

[00:33:56] And that's what I find amazing.

[00:33:58] And that's where I really consider this a salutogenic drug.

[00:34:08] Yeah.

[00:34:09] And then...

[00:34:10] Yeah.

[00:34:11] It sounds...

[00:34:14] It's dynamic in the way it responds to this.

[00:34:18] And that makes it very special in the way, because that prohibits it from just running one standard action,

[00:34:28] which actually causes the damage, right?

[00:34:31] And if you overuse it.

[00:34:33] So, that's really fascinating.

[00:34:37] Can you talk...

[00:34:39] You talked about...

[00:34:40] You asked about safety, right?

[00:34:42] So, that's always a concern with drugs, is what happens if you take too much.

[00:34:46] Well, so, let me address safety real quickly.

[00:34:50] And I have to back up a little bit here.

[00:34:53] So, this particular medical device acts more locally than it does systemically.

[00:34:59] And this is actually...

[00:35:02] It gets fairly interesting here.

[00:35:04] So, the local concentration of these ions that are delivered by the ion gel are actually quite high.

[00:35:11] So high that were they systemic, they'd probably be bad for humans.

[00:35:17] But they're not systemic.

[00:35:19] They're applied locally.

[00:35:21] And so, as that concentration, that local small area concentration diffuses to the rest of the body,

[00:35:28] it becomes kind of a negligible increase in these ions.

[00:35:32] So, our body really does not see anything but a local increase.

[00:35:38] Now, if you compare this to a microbe...

[00:35:40] Well, a microbe is a single cell, in which case, whenever they're exposed, they're exposed systemically.

[00:35:45] To them, it's systemic.

[00:35:46] And even if they could develop mechanisms to be able to expel ions fast enough,

[00:35:55] they still can't do that because the concentration gradient is so great that it's driving the ions into them.

[00:36:04] So, even if they could expel them, they can't because more is being pushed in.

[00:36:09] So, yeah, the ion gel is actually very safe.

[00:36:15] We haven't really found what is too much.

[00:36:21] Now, obviously, that exists somewhere.

[00:36:24] It's just, at this point, it's more than is really reasonable at all.

[00:36:29] You could drink too much water if you wanted to, and that could kill you.

[00:36:32] So, we don't normally have to warn people about that because there are lots of things that will keep you from doing that.

[00:36:39] Yeah.

[00:36:40] Can you talk about some of the results you have seen with the ion gel on infections specifically?

[00:36:47] I know we briefly touched upon diabetic wounds, but can you go more details and share more examples here?

[00:36:56] Sure.

[00:36:56] Actually, I like staying on the diabetic wounds to illustrate this because illustrate the real world results, I guess,

[00:37:05] because as we discussed, it's kind of these wounds are kind of the canary in the coal mine,

[00:37:13] foreshadowing what might be happening globally at some point if we don't address antibiotic resistance.

[00:37:21] So, I guess I can bring back, remember, Eduardo from last time.

[00:37:25] So, he was a diabetic runner who developed a foot wound and standard treatments couldn't heal it.

[00:37:33] So, at the time, the ion gel wasn't on the market yet.

[00:37:40] So, Eduardo actually got cosmetic products.

[00:37:45] Technically, they were expired cosmetic products.

[00:37:48] And I say, now they're based on the same ion biotechnology.

[00:37:53] And I say technically expired because the products are so antimicrobial that expiration dates don't really mean that it's no longer,

[00:38:07] you know, that it can go bad or it's no longer effective.

[00:38:10] It's more of a regulatory thing.

[00:38:13] But so, even though there wasn't really much experience with this technology on diabetic wounds at the time,

[00:38:18] Eduardo's case was still pretty remarkable.

[00:38:20] He had roughly a two-inch diameter wound and it healed so rapidly that it left no visible scarring.

[00:38:30] And now that it's approved, the ion gel, that is, we see kind of even more impressive results.

[00:38:37] You know, it's a higher concentration than it was in the cosmetic products that he was using and it's now controlled.

[00:38:45] But it's still a new product.

[00:38:47] And so, doctors, they have to start with the products that they know, the things that they know.

[00:38:55] So, they really have to start, I mean, especially for significant wounds, right?

[00:38:58] So, they have to start with the standard of care.

[00:38:59] And they can't really start trying these unproven, unknown things until after they've exhausted the standard of care.

[00:39:11] And what that means is that typically it's about a month that the standard of care treatments have to fail before they can try something new.

[00:39:23] And remember, it's either try something new or we're going to have to cut your foot off.

[00:39:29] So, amputation is the next step.

[00:39:33] You might as well try this, you know, this new crazy gel.

[00:39:36] And so, in that case, several doctors have gotten to try it now.

[00:39:41] And, of course, all of the wounds are typically severe because it's been after a month of failure.

[00:39:50] And so, we're talking wounds that are, you know, centimeters in diameter and often deep enough that you can see bone.

[00:39:58] And amputation really is.

[00:40:01] And I'm seeing many of these.

[00:40:04] I'm surprised that amputation hadn't already occurred.

[00:40:07] I don't really know how to express this well without pictures.

[00:40:13] But the before image pictures here are going to be fairly gruesome.

[00:40:18] So, I don't know, perhaps we can include them, visuals on a resource section.

[00:40:24] And then anyone interested can take a look.

[00:40:28] But suffice to say, in every case so far, probably more than a dozen, less than two dozen, the wounds have started to close almost immediately.

[00:40:38] And with significant progress for wound repair seen in just two to three applications.

[00:40:48] And, you know, perhaps that shouldn't be quite as surprising as it is because we also know that we have yet to find a microbial pathogen that the ion gel doesn't kill.

[00:41:04] But really, the astonishing part is the speed at which the healing is occurring.

[00:41:11] And especially because this is in diabetics.

[00:41:13] But that also might be part of the reason why it can heal so fast.

[00:41:21] The diabetics are likely using it differently than most people would.

[00:41:26] Actually, off-label, different than the instructions.

[00:41:28] The instructions tell you to put it around sutures or around a wound and not put it on top of the wound until a scab is formed.

[00:41:36] And that's because it's slightly acidic and it'll sting a little bit.

[00:41:39] Think like hydrogen peroxide.

[00:41:43] And but there's enough of the ions that will diffuse through and kill anything, whether you put it on the wound or not.

[00:41:54] So remember, diabetics also lose sensation.

[00:41:58] So they don't really care that it stings.

[00:42:00] They're not feeling that, in which case they're probably using a lot more than most people would.

[00:42:07] And what that also means is that we likely haven't identified the optimal therapeutic dose because those outcomes really are truly extraordinary and healing really fast.

[00:42:19] And remember, diabetics shouldn't be healing fast.

[00:42:22] So what I'm seeing is the speed of healing is surprising for someone in excellent health, much less a diabetic.

[00:42:32] So this really highlights not only the antimicrobial efficacy, but also the support to the body's natural healing processes.

[00:42:43] And it really, I don't know, it seems to me that this is really offering a new hope for patients who previously didn't have any.

[00:42:50] Even if we just stay with diabetic wound healing and that's it.

[00:42:53] Even though, I guess I should say, that's not what the product is approved for in Mexico.

[00:42:58] It's approved for general wounds and general antioxidative properties.

[00:43:07] It's really fascinating.

[00:43:08] Also, the thing that a lot of discoveries are made like this.

[00:43:13] Like, I mean, we are talking about GLPs as magic pill here in the U.S.

[00:43:18] And it is really started with insulin resistance.

[00:43:23] And that's what it was, the first thing.

[00:43:25] And now here we are, now all of a sudden we discover it was for weight loss.

[00:43:30] And now we are going further in Alzheimer's and everything.

[00:43:33] It's going in that direction now.

[00:43:35] And I feel like a lot of things are discovered like this.

[00:43:40] And I feel like this is fascinating in a way.

[00:43:44] How an expired drug was used and this then healed in a way.

[00:43:49] And we don't know the exact proportion, but we also see a lot of value in this.

[00:43:53] So it's really fascinating in that regard.

[00:43:58] Okay.

[00:43:59] This is something I guess this will come up in more of our conversations as we talk about in further episodes.

[00:44:06] But for today's conversation and before we wrap it up, let's talk about the efficacy of salutogenic versus cratogenic drugs.

[00:44:21] And specifically, salutogenic drugs sounds promising, a lot of promise.

[00:44:26] But can they really compete with cratogenic drugs in terms of efficacy?

[00:44:31] And also what impact do you think they could realistically have on the future of medicine?

[00:44:37] I mean, a little long-term vision.

[00:44:40] Yeah, so definitely there is kind of a bias that salutogenic drugs, okay, well, those could be really safe.

[00:44:53] But cratogenic drugs are going to be a lot more effective because they're actually forcing what we want to have happen.

[00:45:00] And I understand that thinking and that mindset.

[00:45:09] But really, this ion gel ZCM25 kind of is turning that assumption on its head, right?

[00:45:15] It's both highly effective and inherently salutogenic, inherently safe.

[00:45:20] And really, you know, if we return to those untreatable diabetic wounds, remember, they were untreatable with conventional drugs and conventional therapies.

[00:45:30] And, you know, they're a one-way ticket to amputation when no other option is left.

[00:45:36] And it's the ion gel, which is a salutogenic.

[00:45:40] So it's a salutogenic drug here that is having efficacy well beyond anything else.

[00:45:48] So now I suppose you could argue that, okay, well, that's one.

[00:45:53] Most salutogenic drugs are probably going to be closer to a safer product with cratogenic drugs being stronger or more effective products.

[00:46:04] And that might be the way that most things fall out.

[00:46:11] But if we could just take the active ingredient that is in the ion gel, and that is ion biotechnology aqueous ligands, I-B-A-L.

[00:46:30] We pronounce that I-B-A-L, so we don't sound quite so pretentious.

[00:46:36] That API could really have far-reaching applications that go well beyond topical use.

[00:46:44] Some of them are, hopefully we can postpone that superbug apocalypse by effectively targeting all these antimicrobial resistant microbes.

[00:46:55] And it really does have the potential to completely avoid that crisis.

[00:47:03] And on top of that, it can be used for infectious disease control.

[00:47:08] Imagine fogging or nebulizing it to sterilize environments.

[00:47:15] And that could be an invaluable tool in hospitals and schools and even public transportation.

[00:47:23] So think of it, I mean, it's so safe that you can actually fog an area or a room and people can enter that room while it is being sterilized.

[00:47:33] And not only would it not be a threat to them, they could be healthier because of it, which is kind of amazing.

[00:47:44] I remember, I guess it's a different thing.

[00:47:47] It was killing fleas, but when we would have to fog the house because our dog got so many fleas and we had to kill the fleas.

[00:47:56] Yeah, I mean, we had to like stay out of the house for the entire day and then open everything up and air everything out.

[00:48:02] You wouldn't have to do that type of stuff.

[00:48:05] Then there's also post-infection control.

[00:48:09] And it could be used as like a post-exposure prophylactic.

[00:48:15] So I guess not post-infection, but post-exposure for infection control.

[00:48:20] And such as health care workers or travelers in high-risk areas.

[00:48:25] So once you get exposed to something, you know you've been exposed.

[00:48:27] OK, well, then you can nebulize this thing, breathe the stuff.

[00:48:30] And hopefully we can kill it in your sinuses and everything before it actually has time to infect your body.

[00:48:37] We might even be able to.

[00:48:39] And actually, this is perhaps the most exciting aspect is the potential of this API to address systemic oxidation and chronic inflammation.

[00:48:50] And in doing so, in doing so, reset the cellular signaling that really is at the root of so many of these chronic diseases.

[00:48:59] And that could open entirely new avenues for disease management.

[00:49:04] So can salutogenic drugs compete with cratogenic ones in regards to their efficacy?

[00:49:11] Yeah.

[00:49:11] If ion gel ZCM25 is any indication, then absolutely they can.

[00:49:16] And they can even surpass them.

[00:49:18] But even if we're not talking about the ion gel and not talking about this API, if we step back and say, OK, well, there is some, you know,

[00:49:28] you've got a salutogenic drug and it doesn't have quite as much efficacy per dose as a cratogenic drug, but it has very little downside and there's almost no risk to using it.

[00:49:42] But the risk, the benefit analysis becomes such that you can use it more often, in which case you can.

[00:49:51] I mean, so as long as your efficacy there is additive, you can approach the same efficacy with that salutogenic drug that might not be as effective per dose as the cratogenic one.

[00:50:04] Whereas the cratogenic one, you have to be very careful what your dose is.

[00:50:09] And that's where lots of problems lie with overdoses or underdoses, not getting enough to actually do what it's supposed to do.

[00:50:19] So your view is certainly it's going to transform really how the medicine works in general.

[00:50:30] Absolutely. And I think that the the APIs based on technology are going to be at the forefront of all of this, because what we can do there is we can put in any essential ion that we care to.

[00:50:45] This is this is really interesting. So, yeah, we are at the end of our episode.

[00:50:52] But if people want to find more information specifically about, you know, the technology, where can they go and find out this information?

[00:51:01] Do you want to point then?

[00:51:03] So I guess the first place I'd send people is to the Ionic Alliance Foundation website.

[00:51:09] And so that's a ionic alliance dot org.

[00:51:15] There's also another page that really just goes through and tries to explain the different types of mechanisms of action.

[00:51:25] And that would be I B A L dot info.

[00:51:31] But that's probably good for now.

[00:51:33] And maybe what we'll do is we can put more and more of this up on the IAS website.

[00:51:40] All right. With every episodes in our show notes, you get direct links to ion foundation.

[00:51:47] So if that's your starting point, go start there.

[00:51:49] Click the link and you'll be there on the website.

[00:51:53] And and Jason, again, once again, thank you.

[00:51:56] This has been very insightful episode.

[00:52:00] At least I learned a lot.

[00:52:01] Now I'm guessing the people who will listen will learn a lot on this, too.

[00:52:05] Thank you.

[00:52:06] Some really fascinating insights of things to come.

[00:52:11] Almost almost almost almost almost almost a tunnel view inside to the future.

[00:52:18] To say through celluletogenesis where it's going.

[00:52:22] And I hope it keeps up with the pace what we want to.

[00:52:26] And that can change lives all across the world.

[00:52:29] But once again, thank you for sharing all the insights.

[00:52:32] Much appreciated.

[00:52:33] And we'll come back for the next episode.

[00:52:36] All right.

[00:52:36] Thank you very much.

[00:52:37] Thank you very much.

[00:52:38] Thank you.